At The Helm - Episode 2 | Kristen Haney, Robert Half

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'At The Helm' is a series of chats with business leaders in charge of performance marketing programs at all kinds of brands. We'll be discussing unique challenges they face at their role and company as well as the strategies they use to solve for them.

Episode 2 is our interview with Kristen Haney, Senior Manager of Web Marketing SEO and Digital Content at Robert Half! We chat about all kinds of SEO & content related strategy and tactics she's used over the years and where she sees the industry going as we head into 2023 and beyond.

Below is the transcript:

All right. Thank you, Kristen for doing this and joining today, super excited to talk to you. Obviously, we've had a chance to work together in the past, but you moved on to new and exciting role. So maybe real quick, tell us what your current role is. And then I would love to kind of kick off with your past and kind of what brought you to hear the evolution of your career.

Sure, yeah. Thank you so much for having me. So I currently work with Robert Half, which is a staffing staffing solutions company, I think is how we're branded it right now I manage all of our SEO programs. So that's both for North America cites US and Canada, as well as international SEO. And I have a team of to the report into me. So it's three of us in the energy 19 websites.

Nice. Okay, well, I'm already gonna get into details. All the other sites are they like kind of sub directories or they like data Fars.

They're all their own domains. So we've got a bunch of domains are actually moving over to one a top level domain so that when it costs spicy time at Robert hop right now,

okay, we can get into that fun stuff in a moment. So I know you kind of have more of a content background, right. And that's kind of what the beginning I don't know if that's what you're doing at Sam's Club or your previous one is a Vitor that you're doing this with to

buy a tour. So they were acquired by TripAdvisor before I joined them. So it's what's also known as TripAdvisor experiences, I was working on Viator, which has its own brand, as well as TripAdvisor experiences. But even further back, I got started in what people consider not dinosaur, which is print magazine. So it's your transition, and probably as far away from SEO as you can go there. But I started there, and then realize, like, articles aren't showing up on when you search for things like we just weren't really showing up on Google. And at that point, it started poking around and learning more about SEO, and then made the transition. As I told people, I sold my soul to tech. So you can make a lot of money as a magazine editor, and transitioned over to Viator and TripAdvisor. And that's where I worked with the content team. But I worked really closely with our separate SEO team to do a lot of different testing and content optimization.

Those were for experiences is that what the main point of Viator was right? It was Vitoria.

It's like tours, activities, you can book you know, a haunted walking tour of New Orleans, or you can get a ticket into the Louvre different things like,

yeah, for Expedia, we in the past have helped quite a bit with that type of content. And one thing that's interesting is when you're writing for all the different destinations, and then of course, you have all the attractions for each destination as well, kind of have to figure out all the differentiation that you're going to do with that content. Right. That's what we're trying to solve for.

Yeah, even things like, you know, obviously, there's language differences that we had to start localizing for but also just with English, things like how, you know, the Brits refer to a certain activity versus you know, the Aussies versus Americans versus Canadians. There's just different things, even within the English language. So really understanding that, luckily, we had a team where we had a Brit, we have a office in Sydney. So we had some of that feedback. But really, it's like source and find writers in destination or a deep destination. All

right, okay. And was there a tone of voice or brand guideline that you guys were like, absolutely having to stick to what while trying to toe the line of like, ranking this content or trying to work in terms and things like that?

It was interesting when I joined because a lot of the writers were doing a lot of optimization for the tours that suppliers were sending in. So it'd be like two lines, like you walk through a room. And so we'd have to go and actually do and optimize. And so when I came on, it was like, Oh, what was it like smell of a sense in the air. And it was very, let's say descriptive, very evocative, but like not necessarily keyword optimized. And so we did a whole shift kind of invoice there to make it very clear to the user what the tour actually was, what you were doing, but also to make sure that these were optimized to Appearance Search, so you can really start competing in the market.

Right? Okay. It was organic as a channel, one of the top driving channels for that eventually, or maybe it was before it was acquired.

Yeah, so organic was definitely top driving channel. What was nice about TripAdvisor is that their CEO really understood and champion SEO. Yeah. And I think anyone knows that when you search for things to do in certain places, TripAdvisor and Expedia, they're both in the top results. And it's also a big believer in UGC. And so how we could leverage UGC as well to be able to rank faster. So, right, it was a top driver. It was one where we were obviously expanding to other channels. So I also worked closely with our display team, our paid search team because we were almost like a content agency within TripAdvisor and Viator. We could work with different teams and run different tests really enable them,

right? What was the biggest source of UGC? Was it like people leaving reviews or was there something else?

Reviews and photos? Yeah, we had a very robust like photo detection system to weed out anything questionable, and

I'm sure there's a moderation element to everything right.

Yeah, same with reviews. So reviews are a big source. So in what we actually did on our side was we really worked with the team that was collecting reviews to try and get attributes, start powering different filtering capabilities on the reviews. And then you can even take some of the review content and use that for tagging the actual tour. So we were able to scrape like, Hey, this is good with the abovementioned family or if they mentioned it was a honeymoon or things like that, actually started getting that data, applying it to the different tours and and creating unique landing pages for those types of tours based off some that feedback.

Gotcha. Okay. You don't have to spoil this if you if you're not supposed to be fair, it's all fair game. But the forum on TripAdvisor, we always noticed that it had links to all the different attractions or destinations when mentioned in the forum or in the reviews. And we never knew if that was a manual process, or if that was something automated, we tried to figure out a reverse engineered a little bit, but I had a hunch that it may have been manual.

It might have been I luckily was not involved in that process. And the whole forum side of things was a whole different pieces managed by different team. Thankfully, it wasn't smaller teams like they're doing that manually. Very impressive. I never heard of any sort of machine learning or automation of that process. Yeah, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm not trying to be like tricky here at all. I truly don't

know. Sure. That's fair. Yeah. I mean, if it was automated, be amazing, right? Like, that's kind of the Holy Grail is figuring out like, what are the common? Actually, I don't know if we're already getting in the weeds here. But we've been playing I know, You've played a little bit with that ngram analysis, where you kind of see what the most common 234 word phrases are, right? And you can use for views as one of those sources for UGC. And then from there, pull out what common themes and then what you should be linking to when you see all these mentions, and you know that that piece is kind of a really fun analysis to run, but it's, you're left with now what and then that's where the Okay, let's do a bulk upload file with all these links or figure out a way to kind of do it and then it's how do you keep it refreshed? All those fun challenges?

Yeah, it's, we I was very lucky at TripAdvisor that there were like dedicated engineering teams for SEO, like you could really get, you could play around with a lot of those things where you want to jump the gun boat and move to startup culture was like pulling teeth to try to get some of those things. So if any place would have done it, it would have been TripAdvisor. If they did it. I would love to talk to whoever did

it. Okay, so did you get sick of travel, and that's why you left or because your next opportunity was kind of a different industry.

A completely different industry, no, didn't get sick of travel, but really wanted to lean more into the SEO side, actually had the opportunity to being poached internally for either product management or for the SEO team. And then someone reached out at Sam's Club, which is part part of Walmart, if people are aware of that. And they're like, Hey, you can manage a whole team of writers and we want you to really build our content program, but up leveling into the SEO team. I was like, great. Let's do it. I want to do new industry. Let's go into E commerce. Let's try something new. And I did try it for a year. Okay. And that

was all in house writers who said, yeah, so it was,

it was 12 full time, freelance writers. So they're working for me 40 hours a week, I inherited them. But none of them are like, based in house. Yes. Managed by an agency. It sounds a little weird, because I've never had that many full time writers that I didn't know what they were doing. No one seemed to know what they were doing. No one had been managing them actively. Yeah. And so it was a weird time. None of them really knew SEO, either. Maybe they'd been moved right under that team around the same time that I started. So it's really silly, like SEO basics. They're trying to launch a blog for Sam's Club. And then also, you know, really trying to set a roadmap for SEO with my boss. And that was a bit of a challenge.

Right? Okay. Maybe this doesn't apply to Sam's Club. But in your I know, in the past, you've worked with freelancers, and in house writers. So like, have you found a challenge with freelancers? Trying, like, for example, sometimes making sure that they're, once they're on tone, and they've nailed the voice and they're delivering good content, you really don't want to lose them, right? Because now they're the go to writer for making things faster, and they're doing good content. The problem with freelancers is, of course, they can come and go. And so I don't know if you've ever had those types of challenges with freelancers or any other challenges.

Yeah, I tend to bring freelancers along with me. So I have one full time geyser. Unfortunately, she was impacted with COVID layoffs. And so I was like, Yeah, I need a freelancer. And so I think the the key there really is finding, finding good people, but also be flexible and understanding and paying them what they're worth. If someone's been like she was with me for a year and was like, Hey, if you want to upgrade your title to senior writer for SEO, or for Grover I was, go for it. I was like, I'm also going to give you a raise because you've been working for us. I don't want to lose you. And so if this is how much you don't get per hour and she didn't ask for it, I would encourage all three Then switch to advocate for what they're worth. Yeah, that's how I've been able to keep a lot of my freelancers. Some have moved on to full time positions, and I can't fault them for that. I've, a lot of times I've been there reference for that. And it's, it's understood, like my job here is, is to really help my network and make sure that they're happy with whatever they're doing. Some people really want to stay away on so they can keep those people around, and some are freelance until full time comes in. It's a bummer. Like, I'd love to keep them forever. But it's it's part of the way of life.

Yeah, it is. I totally agree with that premise. By the way, if like, if they are doing great work, why not start to pay them more and keep them on because they're going to become that trusted resource. Plus, not only that, the amount of time that it's going to take to find somebody else, and it just makes sense to pay properly for the people that are doing good work for you guys. Yeah,

she was with me for my entire time at Grove. So yeah, she was with me for almost three years there because she did good work. I like enjoyed working with her and repayment what she was worth,

yeah. Okay, good.

at Sam's Club, were you guys doing content that was more editorial in nature? Or was it more like product detail? Page type content?

Yeah. So when I came in, they were reviewing every single product description what goes through that copy team before it went live? So there's also like a big bottleneck on that team. And then I was tasked with also finding editorial writers to help launch the blog there, which had its own trials and tribulations. So it was like, Hey, move, half this team starts doing editorial writing, and some of them are suited for it. Some of them weren't. A lot of them didn't even understand basic CMS sort of uploading. And so that was a challenge basic HTML. So it was really product focused team that we're trying to force it to doing other sorts of things, I probably would have approached it differently. Had I not inherited a team of writers was building my own team probably would have built it out a little little different.

Yeah. Okay.

And I know, you know, this part of the Walmart family, but Walmart has its own site. And of course, you share a lot of products. I'm sure you're competing directly against them as well, right.

Yeah, Sam's Club is a little bit like the redheaded stepchild of the brand, like we didn't get a lot of the things or we got like the old version of different tooling that Walmart had. So it was hard also working with some of our vendors that were used. They're like, well, in Walmart, they do this. And it's like, well,

we don't have that yet. We haven't. We haven't qualified for that yet, I

guess. So it's interesting. And yeah, you did compete with Walmart, it felt a little bit adversarial versus we're one company working together. But the biggest competitor for us was Costco. And Costco doesn't even have or at least didn't even have a robust online presence. It just had such brand recognition because it's widely available.

Yeah. Do you think that's changed? By the way? Costco has online presence? I don't know if you follow along. But it seems to me

I haven't been following them. So I remember one time their site was down for I think, a good portion of sometime around the holidays. And like they didn't get back at like for half a day and all of us, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Wow.

Cool. Anything else at Grove that was unique to that role?

Oh, I mean, for growth. Yeah, growth. Yeah. Grow was the first time I was coming in. And I was a team of one. And it was also managing, kind of building that whole process from the ground up. So at Sam's Club, they did have an established SEO system. Definitely TripAdvisor the content team and the SEO team existed, growth, nothing existed. So it was really exciting time to be able to go in there, build out a freelance team and kind of find agencies who really supported the work we were doing. But also, it was a lot of doing a lot on the ground and kind of managing all of that help them launch their blog and scale the blog. And it was yeah, it was a lot. But really company I believed in the mission, and was really thankful for my time there.

And so you're talking Grove collaborative. And there you were kind of wearing a lot of hats, like you just said, right. But you, would you I mean, I know you're doing SEO and content, some of the other positions. But when you went to grow, did one more, I guess, did you lean to one side more than another? Once you kind of got going there? Did the role evolve? I guess is the question.

Yeah, definitely. My technical knowledge kind of going into Grove was definitely limited. That was much, much stronger and content, I had to learn quickly. Yeah, that was doing things like queuing, engineering releases looking at schema. So definitely lean more into the content side of things. And I still very frank with people, I tell them my specialty is content from an SEO perspective, that I know enough technical SEO to be dangerous. But I really had to grow that kind of side of my knowledge base going to growth and especially when I was trying to advocate for different products and engineering resources, being able to not only know what I'm talking about, but also prove the ROI was definitely a challenge and something I had to learn very quickly at Grove.

Oh proving the ROI for that is that's a $10,000 question for anyone right in our industry. But it's I don't know what like what was your approach to do any And guess before I offer even an opinion here?

I mean, sometimes we brought in agencies that had experienced. No, I mean, it was also difficult because it was a company that had relied so heavily on paid social in particular to drive acquisition and I was leveling into the acquisition team. And obviously, I can't say when I spend X against y, or whatever, you know, it's like I spend X, maybe we'll get live. And I don't know when and I hope it's soon. And so it became harder to really was looking at, okay, if we improved, and sometimes you're like, oh, no, like 3%. If we get 3% more traffic to this page type, knowing what we know about conversion there. What can we expect from the customer acquisition and revenue? That sort of thing. It was never a perfect science, but at least doing that really stad helped get it prioritizing and other initiatives. The other thing was saying, hey, all of our competitors have this. We don't, that was the only way I got product schema. Like here's the SERP that results page. This is how we look, this is how everyone else looks. And then it did some fuzzy math.

Yeah, I mean, these are two things that are the second one with just showing what the competitors have. And that we don't, sometimes that's the most powerful way of getting anything implemented, especially if it has to go through rounds of approval, and it's going to be seen by someone in sea level, they ultimately want to make sure that you know, your brand Grove is in the best position possible to compete. And it's a glaring thing right there on a search result page that there's no star ratings, or there's no price range, right or something else on a product page or category. It's a no brainer that you should be doing those things. But it's sometimes it's sad that it takes that in order to convince them someone else that's going to sign off on it, because you can make the case for Hey, we're going to improve click through rate, if we have this in place, or we're going to actually see more traffic, we think because Google's gonna have a different understanding of his page with the schema that we're going to use. But that's just vague language to a lot of people. Right. And it's just they have a we don't and it's so black and white that you can get it solved.

Usually, I see I was so involved with the various aspects of the business like you would come to me and be like, Why aren't we this plda answer? Yeah. It's like that is resourcing issue, you know? And so, but then we get all the resources to fix that. So yeah, sometimes we just have to say, like, you just have to, I was like, we should have a blog, when COVID started know, something we've kind of gone back and forth about and then our CEO was like, why don't we have any content around like, hand washing and hand sanitizer? Like we saw young sanitizer. That's what actually got it spearheaded, and that it was a bit of a scramble to get it live. But it was kind of that push that that helped me there. And it's because our competitors were producing content, and we weren't.

Right. Yeah. You The other thing you had mentioned was, you know, we think someone landing on this type of page is going to probably convert more. So you know, at that point, you're talking about intent and the page that they're going to be landing on, not all created equal, so a blog post versus a product page or something else. And I know that one thing that we got to do together was listicles, which kind of was a blurred line between the two. And I just wanted to hear from you like what you thought about the listicle idea? And like in the future, if that's something you still think you're trying to do? Or is that I guess, like the results of listicles beyond just traffic, possibly, like, what did you see from a conversion standpoint as well on those? Yeah,

we talked about this at length, but for the general audience, blogs just didn't convert for us. So we got a ton of traffic to blogs, and the majority of that traffic bounced listicle is converted much better. And we're also appearing for some of the search terms that Natalie I heard about that leadership cared about. So we're seeing things like for natural overspill up there, kind of just like natural handsoap natural dish detergent, a lot of the reasons like results on first page, unborn listicles. And so the way that we could compete because Google was saying, Hey, we're prioritizing listicles was by creating this listicles. On the bright side, build a skills also tend to be targeting, it seems like a bit more kind of mid funnel on time, they'd be comparison, they're trying to decide they need to buy it. And so we did see people buying and I was shocked that we saw people buying zero subscription model two. So minimum, he really incentivized to have a bunch of things in your cart from the starch, they put them there. So there's a lot of barriers to conversion, and people are still converting through listicles I think it makes a lot of sense for E commerce space, and especially in kind of the natural or eco friendly goods and what we're seeing in SERPs, you know, for recruiting in the space I'm in now it's a little bit harder. It's like, Yeah, well, we could try things like here the 10 best jobs in engineering jobs in San Francisco and that sort of thing, but it's not necessarily what I would lean into here. But definitely, if I was an E commerce, I've seen a lot of law school results. I would recommend that to a lot of people.

Yeah, we, you know, of course, having luxury to be on the agency side. We get to try something like an idea and a bunch of different agencies. and it has worked really well outside of E commerce as well, a lot of b2b and service driven companies. Never full disclosure never done in the space that you're in now, Robert Half. But the interesting thing we've learned from our own is that the listicles can be research driven to justify click through on the thing being listed, as opposed to a buy now option. So there's no doubt that for E commerce that makes a lot of sense, and that someone after reading whatever the reason, or the case is for that being ranked number two on your list of 10. Whether that's average reviews, or how many people love it, or testimonials, they'll always do that. Well, not always, but they're more likely to versus a blog post. But on the service driven ones will say like we polled this many people, or we found this research and according to this medicine journal, or something like that, just those statements seem to increase likelihood to go deeper into the site from someone on a listicle versus just an article where that might be buried further down the page, you know, unlike paragraph five, or something like that. So for some reason, I don't know if it's just people like to skim and then they see things more clearly when they skim, but it's, I don't know, it's tends to work. Yeah,

that's interesting. And it's a struggle, the blog team isn't reporting to me, Robert, half, it's completely doesn't even level up to my VP, it's completely a different function. Yeah, it's been interesting to try and work with them and understand kind of their, their content process, as well as how we can help influence that. And, to my knowledge, they've never even tried listicles. And so having, and we have a wealth of knowledge and experts in the fields, you know, all of our different locations. So it's definitely ways we could test into leveraging that a bit more.

Okay, this, this isn't a growth specific question, but maybe you occurred with this occurred of growth, but with editorial you've been in the space so long that you probably know what you're looking for with a well written guide. So something that's maybe a little bit more in depth, quality content, it's not something you're churning out you're really like trying to go in depth on something. What does that look like in your mind? What's that page? You know, if I if it was blurry in my scene, stack of words, is there images with text? Is it left? Right left? Right, left, right or is there some other design to this page than your mind for a guy that like, what are the best qualities or best traits of good good?

Yeah, I mean, visually, I'm probably gonna, I'm not gonna blow anyone's mind. But this like, hundreds make it mobile friendly and make it really decipher like decipherable not Big Lots of texts that are difficult to, to skim. I do like, you know, make taken advantage of bulleted lists or ordered lists to things like that, that also clearly distill some of the main things people are looking for. I think a table of contents is always helpful. So people can jump to different sections, and then also have the ability to jump back up if they want, so they can quickly find the answers. It's definitely an include a lot of internal linking kind of the hub spoke model where it's going to be hitting on learn more about this, we did like an ultimate bedroom, bedroom, ultimate kitchen cleaning guy. And we claimed I sorted I swear it grabbed, like, every single thing in that kitchen was like how to clean a microwave how to disinfect a spot, you know, there's so much. It's like, we don't need that all in the guide, we can say, here's like the snippet. And then here's how we're linking it, you know, linking out other things there. From a copy perspective. What drives me crazy is when I call it Google research papers, say you're just regurgitating what is already out there on Google. And that was a struggle to take on groups. I think we did a great job there. But when we started was a lot of the same, again, how to clean your oven, how to clean your frigerator. And then I was like, let's actually try and do this. Let's see if this advice works. Because it's the same advice on the internet everywhere. Let's see what works. And so we're able to say, Hey, we've we've actually tried it, here's where the internet is real. And here's where it's BS, you know, here's what works. And we saw that much more traffic there. And we also saw the much better click through rate to the actual products because we're sure hey, these are the things we used. Sure we saw them on the site. Like they actually work with photos before and afters. Now I'm kind of getting off topic here. But for

exactly on topic, but I want to talk about, you have so much knowledge when it comes to this space that like I'm sure people listening. If I have listeners would love to pick off what you're saying. And basically turn that into an ultimate guide, like Table of Contents check. I need to have this format check that kind of thing.

Yeah, I mean, definitely, for me, like having a logical heading structure. I also standardized a lot of our guides just make it very clear. It is a cleaning guide to be always no, here's the items unique are the steps, just making it really easy also for our writers. The other thing I really recommend is finding a content agency that understands that and is willing to invest in that. I've had a lot of struggles with agencies in the past where it's the same thing seem brief that they come out with it's kind of like lightly researched and that makes sense. Like a lot of times that's what they're being asked to do. And those writers don't have expertise in the area, but they do A content agency that really dials into your business understands it and is willing to kind of go a bit deeper. I think that's the main reason that we're able to scale so well and grow. And it's something that if I were managing our content team today, I would look into to help them scale their efforts.

Yeah. Good editors, I'm assuming also help that process go smoothly.

Yeah, so they actually had the agency, I worked with a grove actually had an embedded editor. And she mainly just worked on her stuff. So we had one dedicated writer, one dedicated editor that were primarily on Grove. And so they were really able to nail voice. They understood from my early feedback, editing for awhile, I also had a managing editor. And she was fantastic. And making sure that everything that went on site was up to par. I was I was pretty hands off all we had her. I was like, great blog is running. We're good. Yeah, girls eliminated had to get more in the weeds there. And again, the agency saved me a ton of time, I had a CMS loader who understood how to do things. So it really was the only way that we could keep things going strong editors, strong writer that understood voice and CMS uploader that I could really trust to push a lot more content live.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that last step to so important with the uploading piece, I mean, not all CMS is are as simple as the rest, right. And then not only that, you want to make sure that any HTML that's included any markup, things like that you got going on that formats correctly. One thing that, you know, always surprised us was the amount of brands that didn't check their content on mobile. And you would see all kinds of crazy layouts and things that didn't look quite well. And then you go, oh, where's the majority of your traffic coming from and then be like mobile, we just happen to look at our desktop.

Yeah. And it's easy to fall into that trap. And like looking at my monitor here, when you have like a big monitor, you're like, Oh, we're designing it for this experience. And we ran into that, too, where teams are like, let's lay it out like this. And like, the writers be very prescriptive about the layout of the page, and then be like, oh, there's all this stack on top of each other on mobile. So like, we don't have to spend time setting it up that way. And it saved us a lot of time to be like, Okay, we don't have to have four columns, because they're all just going to be on top of each other. And it really also helps with kind of paragraph breakup, say, or something that looks much shorter. And skimmable, on desktop is going to be a whole wall of text on mobile. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Kind of a random question about the images and assets that you choose for your content. One nightmare, sometimes, but also a dream come true. If a brand goes, Oh, we have an asset library, and it's already categorized, here you go. But some, sometimes that's not the case, right? And then you avoid stock photography, in general, that you can write and try and figure out there's images sitting somewhere in the company that is don't know about or, you know, but generally, for these guides, and listicles, specifically, and all these types of pieces of content, images is always something that somehow just gets by the wrong people gets left to the end, but by good writers, good editors, and someone like yourself, you know, you know how important or critical it is to the piece? Do you have a like, you know, a dream scenario when you're working with a content agency that like, are they providing the images? Are you providing them with something? How does that whole thing work? And then also with like, tagging the images with all tags or making it work for you guys, like beyond just obviously how it looks?

Yeah, I mean, I, I will say I'm guilty of sometimes leaving images to the to the last, our content agency was great about they actually had a design function as well. So they were able to create custom headers for us if we wanted was, they could help break up the text. And then they also kept a whole library of all of those. And so our CMS letter or writers be like, Oh, I think this, this island would go really nicely here. And so we're able to kind of pull from that and their CMS loaders would know where to find me, because it was not easy. In our CMS. Yeah, we were lucky to have an image library grow, they did a lot of their own photography. It was not categorized in an easy to find way. So that was definitely a challenge. And then we sometimes did pull Spock alt text, I was like, here's the basics, please just include it, please make sure that it's accessible. And it doesn't say an image of a woman in a dog, like, can remember the image part. So it's kind of basics there. But yeah, definitely more we could have been doing. We tried to embed a little bit more with the creative production team. So for like some of their shoots that are gonna be in the kitchen anyway, we're like, you get a close up of the oven for other things that normally wouldn't think of while they're going out to shoot and really having a look ahead of what's coming up in the calendar and what we're refreshing and we might be able to sneak into their schedule, but you're kind of lost in the pecking order.

Yeah, that makes sense. I don't know if we ever talked about this when we got to work together. But we ran a couple image tests and one was wildly successful. It's not my favorite. I'm happy to share here for anyone listening but it worked on E commerce it worked in travel. On any case, where you have let's say a product detail page or hotel information page or something that's going to have an image shared by a bunch of sites, right? Because that product that Sam's clubs available probably at Costco or Walmart, the branch shared, right? You do an image search for any of those things, usually Google's not going to want to repeat an image. So they'll just pick the image from whatever the strongest domain usually is for that first one. And the second one can be anything and everything, usually bloggers and other stuff. So if you have a strong brand, we tested out pull pulling the second image that was not the primary thumbnail on all the competitors, think Amazon, right? Like they have five images. So number two would be the featured image on ours that was marked up. And we would have that image and Google image results be like number one, or number two for the search, and it would get pulled into the organic search result page for a lot of them because we would use the OpenGraph markup on it. It was such an easy thing. So it was literally just defer your thumbnail images. And number two, and have that be, you know, as opposed to the hotel exterior, let's do the interior or the ballroom or something, and have that be the image and then that would rank for the San Diego Marriott or something like because everyone else had that stylized exterior image.